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NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
URL: CodeGear 3rd Rail
At 1:10 AM on Sep 18, 2007, Daniel Spiewak
wrote:
The really interesting thing about this is that it seems 3rdRail is based upon DLTK Ruby and WTP. I was totally surprised by this since DLTK didn't strike me as being so advanced yet, and WTP always seemed geared more toward Java web development. Just goes to show how flexible these tools really are. CodeGear, you have officially restored my faith that DLTK Ruby will one day be among (if not *the*) dominant Ruby Tool.
I haven't had a chance to actually eval this tool yet, but believe me, it's on my list. If you're a Rails dev, or just curious about the developments in the Ruby tool space, do yourself a favor and checkout the screencast. It's about 25 minutes, and quite packed with interesting goodies. The style is a bit...rough, but the content is good. Enjoy!
15 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
I don't know about 3rdRails, but when I tried this month DLTK to play a bit with Ruby, It was my first experience with Ruby, and I though I was doing something terribly wrong, as I did not see any output from the Eclipse console, but...http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/dltk-dev/msg00118.html
Honestly, after that huge showstopper I went to try NB Ruby and it looks miles better than current DLTK support, which is a shame because I really prefer Eclipse for everything else. Let's hope it gets better in this years iterations.
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
Daniel, didn't you forget to mention how it compares with NetBeans in terms of pricing?Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
> Daniel, didn't you forget to mention how it compares> with NetBeans in terms of pricing? :)
I'm gonna sound like an IntelliJ fan...
NetBeans: free
3rdRail: $299
NetBeans: really cool
3rdRail: mind-blowing
Productivity stats? The jury is still out, but if you ask me, 3rdRail is probably worth it given all the benefits it seems to offer. If the productivity benefits are really as significant as I would think, $300 USD is very worthwhile.
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
> NetBeans: really cool> 3rdRail: mind-blowing
I tried 3rdRail today but code completion didn't work in places where NetBeans helps me (e.g. require statements). So I would suggest you to spend more time with both tools and then make conclusions
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
> NetBeans: free> 3rdRail: $299
Since this company has it's genesis in Borland, then let me predict the following sequence of prices based on a 5 year commercial experience with that company and their JBuilder Enterprise line...
Predicted 3rdrail version history
Sorry, but Borland/Inprise (or whatever they've called the new spinoff) can get lost. They'll get none of any enterprise budget I control, and have systematically squandered any goodwill I had towards the company from the days of yore.
Andrew
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
Hi Daniel,Thanks for the kind words about 3rdRail. We're really pleased with the realease, and have aggressive plans for taking it forward. Honestly, writing Ruby code is more fun than I've had developing in a long time, It's been a thrill to work on this project.
To the Borland detractors -- sorry guys, this isn't Borland, or Inprise, this is CodeGear. Borland is based in Texas, we're in Scotts Valley. We do developer tools, period.
On the pricing, retail is $399, we have an introductory price of $299 right now. But it is a different model. In the past we sold software as a license with optional "software assurance". If you bought a license and a new product came out - and you hadn't bought the "assurance" - you had to buy again. Personally I like to be current with the products I use, so we are doing something completely different with 3rdRail.
For $299 you get a perpetual license to the product, and one year update subscription. We'll be delivering quarterly updates with new features, which everyone on subscription will get. If you don't think you are getting a good value on the subscription then don't renew - I wouldn't. I think you'll like what you see in the first release, and I think you'll be pleased with how we grow the product.
I haven't done a bake off in code completion recently, but we're really tight -- including Rails code completion. We do completion on dynamic methods, symbols, in hashes, in rhtml. It's not perfect -- I'm sure there are places where we're not 100%, just like I know there are places where NetBeans isn't 100%. Throwing out one example is meaningless.
Check out the video I did, it shows a number of the cool features in the IDE. Many of the features you reall need to use for a few days before you really appreciate how useful they are. I find myself looking at the dependency view as I code to anticipate side effects from changes. We have several different kinds of code navigation, including one that follows the same dispatch rules as Rails at runtime, so as you develop/change a controller the workflow naturally takes you to the view (assuming that is next in your particular example). It's really natural.
Video: http://dn.codegear.com/article/36985
Grab the trial, use it for a month and then email me. Better yet, call me in my office at CodeGear and tell me what you think. 831.431.2029.
Trial: http://cc.codegear.com/trial/3rdrail
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
> To the Borland detractors -- sorry guys, this isn'tErr, that would be me in this thread.
> Borland, or Inprise, this is CodeGear. Borland is
> based in Texas, we're in Scotts Valley. We do
> developer tools, period.
Well, fair enough, time will tell. But you are definitely from the Borland stable. From your website: "Created by Borland's decision to separate its Developer Tools Group so that we can focus 100% on what we do best - developer tools.".
So, I'm asking you: why will your pricing model be different from the terrible Borland enterprise models? What assurance can you give if we buy into this toolset, that it won't trend back to the Borland pricing models? You can't have it both ways: the kudos from Borland with none of the anger that it generated at the enterprise level in the last few years.
Are the management ex-Borland? How do we know that this won't turn into yet another upward pricing spiral with incremental upgrades costing a significant chunk of the purchase price? I'm looking for some form of reassurance beyond a "of course it won't, we're different".
Andrew
p.s. my experience on this matter, it is true, was mainly from the Inprise days overlapping with the rebranding fiasco. JBuilder Enterprise build problems plagued our (successful) large-scale project, and despite having gold support, we couldn't get any voices heard at Borland. Again, this is despite me employing a Borland-provided consultant full-time on-site. Don't even get me started on AppCenter or BAS. I've removed all these products from every company I can with a fair deal of success.
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
please note that I'm not commenting on the quality of the product (looks very nice) or the *current* price (seems perfectly reasonable).I'm simply asking about the pricing model.
Andrew
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
We adopted the subscription model specifically to allow us to avoid having to jack the price up...and to let us keep adding features.There are accounting and SOX rules that make it really difficult to add features to a released product. It's weird, but true. The subscription model lets us side-step that issue.
I've been showing the product to folks here at RailsConf Europe this week -- it is really cool to see their eyes light up. The team that built 3rdRail -- heck everyone at CodeGear -- is really excited about what we're doing. We really *love* building developer tools, and the excitement in the hallways is really high.
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
Sarbanes-Oxley makes it difficult to add new features to a product? You are kidding right?Can you give me a reference to the section of the act that would cause a problem in this area?
Andrew
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
My understanding FWIW is that any problems regarding misselling can be addressed by either:1. bumping the version number and charging for an upgrade (a subscription here would count)
2. charging for the add-on
Regardless, I've only ever heard of Sarbox affecting existing hardware with expanded facilities through free s/w upgrades:
http://www.news.com/Apple+wants+two+bucks+for+Wi-Fi/2100-1044_3-6151281.html?tag=nefd.top
In that case Apple simply charged 2 bucks...
Andrew
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
There's nothing in SOX that would cause a problem; it's basically just marketing hitting on a Good Idea and running with it in the hope that no-one notices and/or questions it. SOX has nothing to do with software updates, and in any case, the Apple fiasco was widely derided by those in the industry at the time as well.Sounds like marketing spin to me.
Alex.
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
Hi Alex,I don't want to beat this to death, but that is what the finance folks tell me. I'm sure it has something to do with how our (other) products are sold and the revenue recognized. Also I'm not "marketing", that is one of the more offensive things I've heard (only slightly smiling)
It's also not the main point here.
We have a cool new product with a cool new licensing model that we designed because we think it will allow us to give customers a better value and will let us keep making the product better. That is the only important point.
Joe
Re: NetBeans, Watch Out: 3rdRail Arrives
> It's also not the main point here.>
> We have a cool new product with a cool new licensing
> model that we designed because we think it will allow
> us to give customers a better value and will let us
> keep making the product better. That is the only
> important point.
>
> Joe
I think the point that Andrew and Alex were trying to make is that Borland has a history of being slightly untrustworthy where tool licensing and pricing is concerned. I was never really burned by this (though I did use JBuilder at one point), but even I'm given pause when I consider the possibility. 3rdRail is awesome; you guys really did a great job. But developers have to trust CodeGear enough to actually buy the tool, and for a few devs that may be a problem.
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java