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Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

URL: Joe Winchester's article: Eclipse ide = Smalltalk.regroup();

At 9:10 AM on Oct 24, 2005, Ed Burnette Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Joe Winchester, a committer on the Eclipse Webtools project, has written a nice post on his blog about the Smalltalk roots of Eclipse. He credits director Mike Milinkovich with "creating what can only be viewed on as a dream team".
At Eclipsecon 2005 it [was] amazing how many of the speakers, the companies exhibiting products, are the same ones who were part of the Smalltalk community, but also amazing how it is bigger and better than Smalltalk ever was.

Feature-wise, the comparison falls a bit short. On the one hand, we have features like the Java Browsing perspective, scrapbook pages, and edit-and-continue, which were clearly influenced by the Smalltalk experience. However, one of the nice things about Smalltalk is that the system was live and immediately changeable. Eclipse is not like that, yet.

For example, in Eclipse you can't change what a view is doing while you are running the view in the same instance. The best you can do is have a seperate instance of Eclipse and change what is going on there. Dynamic scripting, a feature I've long tried to get people excited about in Eclipse, could go far in providing this missing piece. GUIs described in text resources (XML or otherwise) that could be modified on the fly would help too. Anything that reduces the time between the thought to change something and trying out that change enables faster and faster development cycles.

I would go so far as to say that a "cycle" isn't what we need at all. "Cycles" come from the bad old days of edit-compile-link-debug, days which many of us are still trapped in due to our uninspired tools. Why is everyone so excited about Ruby on Rails? Because when you want to tweak something you save and refresh. Why are there so many emacs zealots out there? Same reason - instant gratification. Eclipse isn't there yet, but the genetic potential is there.

Read Joe's article here: Eclipse ide = Smalltalk.regroup();
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1. At 11:47 AM on Oct 24, 2005, Scott Stanchfield Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

careful! some Lispers might hear you...
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2. At 3:31 PM on Oct 24, 2005, Fred Grott DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

Its is very irnoci in factif look bakc how Java was born..

Remember we had project Green/Oak which took certain infusions from SmallTalk...SPARC was one the first CPU chips both ooptimized for SmallTalk and Java if remember ight..

In fact the Oak 0.2 spec is a fascinating read in comparing it to smalltalk in what they added to imporve and go beyond smalltalk..
Fred Grott, ShareMe jabber:fg82183@conference.javalobby.org(shareme) Official contributor to EclipseZone.com and supporter of JavaLobby.org.
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3. At 11:04 PM on Oct 24, 2005, Joe Winchester Javalobby Regulars wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

I miss the dynamic nature of a Smalltalk JVM as well, but isn't hot swop with the JDT close ? If you are using an IBM JVM you can use the -Xj9 program argument which will get it to use the J9 JVM and I find you can successfully hot swop to the point where it is almost the same as Smalltalk. In Smalltalk not having a separate VM so you could change the IDE itself was sort of dangerous, so having a separate sandbox that you have to launch and hot swop into does seem to be safer.
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4. At 3:37 PM on Oct 25, 2005, David Biesack Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

I remember development with zmacs on the Symbolics Lisp Machine with great fondness. The old 3600 was about a 1 MIP machine, but the feature set was great and very smalltalk like (i.e. save/load of worlds; modify the editor namespace; patch/resume in the debugger). Even nicer was the ability to set interpreted conditions on breakpoints. As Ed hints, integrating scripting (groovy, etc) into Eclipse for such dynamic enhancements of the IDE will be the next important step for Eclipse. What I'd most like to see if a zmacs/GNU Emacs editor scripting enhancement to make it easy to create/modify new editor behaviors within the running IDE - without going through the PDE edit/compile/export|launch cycle...
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5. At 3:54 PM on Oct 25, 2005, Christian Sell DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

I must say that the Smalltalk feature I miss most nowadays is that it sported a truly object- or rather class-oriented IDE, whereas Eclipse follows the file-oriented paradigm that obviously serves the habits of the masses.

In Smalltalk, the the IDE was structured around the fundamental elements of object oriented programs, namely classes and methods (and, for some, Applications and Configuration Maps). Access to these items was provided by dedicated "browsers". What a simple and elegant paradigm.

In this respect I found the move to Visual Age for Java, and then to Eclipse, a continuous step backwards. Of course, it is really the Java language that imposes the file paradigm.
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6. At 10:28 PM on Oct 25, 2005, Ed Burnette Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

Safer, sure, but you've got two windows instead of one, and you're not using your code in the window you're trying to develop in. You can't just be using Eclipse all day for, let's say, web page development and suddenly decide to tweak the appearance of some dialog in the IDE and continue working.

Also I'd argue that plug-in development is a lot harder than customizing something in emacs or smalltalk. And hot swap doesn't work for arbitrary changes like class shape changes.
Ed Burnette
Author, Google Web Toolkit, Eclipse IDE Pocket Guide, Eclipse in Action
ZDNet blogger, Dev Connection; former Top Eclipse Ambassador.
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7. At 10:29 PM on Oct 25, 2005, Ed Burnette Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

You know about the Java Browsing Perspective, right? That plus the toggle that shows only the active element in the editor and you almost have what you wanted.
Ed Burnette
Author, Google Web Toolkit, Eclipse IDE Pocket Guide, Eclipse in Action
ZDNet blogger, Dev Connection; former Top Eclipse Ambassador.
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8. At 6:29 AM on Oct 28, 2005, Thomas Mäder DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

Ed, have you tried the new IBM 5.0 VM yet? I don't have a Linux box, so I can't (dumb, dumb IBM policy! grfxfmbl....). They might have done something about the class shape changes, you never know.
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9. At 3:41 PM on Oct 29, 2005, Christian Sell DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

yes, tat at least undoes to some extent the first step backwards (the one towards Visual Age Java).

I really enjoyed the ability to open an independent browser (window) for whatever item I wanted to focus on.
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10. At 9:15 PM on Oct 29, 2005, Ed Burnette Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: Smalltalk DNA holds key to Eclipse's past, and future

Nope, waiting for the Windows version.
Ed Burnette
Author, Google Web Toolkit, Eclipse IDE Pocket Guide, Eclipse in Action
ZDNet blogger, Dev Connection; former Top Eclipse Ambassador.

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