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Reply 1. At 12:34 PM on Oct 27, 2006, Romain Guy wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
One good rule about visual design is to *not* show early designs, for they are most often not very good. I know visual aesthetics are a matter of personal taste but still, I'll be honest with you. This is not pretty and this is not compelling. It is, however, a good example of an extreme GUI makeover, which is not necessarily about good looking results but how far you can go with your toolkit.

I have no doubt your UI will get better very soon but you should really avoid using that kind of screenshot as an example of nice-looking screens.

That said, I am glad to see the kind of stuff you can do with SWT.; Romain Guy
Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Reply 2. At 6:07 PM on Oct 27, 2006, Steve Northover wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
> This is not pretty and this is not compelling

Um, excuse me ... but who elected you the arbitrator of good taste in UI design? I understand you have hacked an application or two in your time but really, these things are often a matter of personal taste. Quite frankly, I think you are being rude.

Let's be clear. If this application had been written in Visual Basic or Lisp, it would make no difference. The fact that SWT was used has no bearing on what I am saying. It's just unkind to tell someone their work is not pretty and not compelling.

Steve
Reply 3. At 12:07 AM on Oct 28, 2006, Daniel Spiewak wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Well actually, I'm with Romain on this one. Now I love SWT as much as the next guy, but I don't really care for what I see in this screenshot. I don't mean to be rude, but by posting it here you're really fishing for opinions; and now you have them.; Daniel Spiewak
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java
Reply 4. At 12:57 AM on Oct 28, 2006, James Birchfield wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Actually, I was not fishing for opinions. I was simply showing that an RCP app does not have to look like an IDE as so many people have complained about.

Perhaps you are right about early screenshots...

The 'compelling' comment was not regarding the 'prettiness' (or lack thereof according to some) of the GUI. The compelling thing being shown is that the views in the desktop can run as normal Eclipse views inside the IDE without modification as well as running within a desktop that looks nothing like the IDE itself.

Like they say, opinions are like asses, everyone has one...but that was not the intent of this post...oh well. Maybe when we have a finished product I will show more.

Birch
Reply 5. At 1:07 AM on Oct 28, 2006, James Birchfield wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
OK, the edit comment function seems to be broken, so I will reply to myself

I think the point of my post is being missed. I was simply showing that an RCP app does not have to look like an IDE as so many people have complained about. I was clear that the views were merely placeholders.

I do appreciate the opinions on the screenshot, even if they are not flattering. And at some point when the product is finished and I post final screens, then I will take them seriously. But for now, don't bother...I know it is not finished, and am not looking for opinions...just showing what can be done differently with an RCP app.

Birch
Reply 6. At 12:58 PM on Oct 28, 2006, Romain Guy wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Let me quote myself:

>I know visual aesthetics are a matter of personal taste but still, I'll be honest with
>you. This is not pretty and this is not compelling.

I think I have been clear. I know visual tastes are personal and I voiced *my* opinion. It's a bit easy to single out this sentence from my message by the way. And I also dislike this whole notion of not saying anything bad about somebody's work just because, well, that's somebody elses's work. I myself received a fair amount of negative comments about my work during the past few years and it's the primary thing that drove me to improve my stuff. I don't think that keeping quiet would help James in any way.

It's funny how anyone can say anything about the quality of a piece of code or the quality of an architecture without being qualified as rude.

Now that James gave more details about his intent, I can only say repeat what I said in my first message. I am glad to see you can do that with SWT and, furthermore, make an Eclipse RCP application doesn't look like an Eclipse RCP application.; Romain Guy
Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Reply 7. At 1:01 PM on Oct 28, 2006, Romain Guy wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
My bad James. English is not my native language and I thought you were refering to the pretiness of the UI.; Romain Guy
Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Reply 8. At 2:28 PM on Oct 28, 2006, James Birchfield wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
No worries brother. I don't bruise easy.

I was not as clear as I should have been in my original post, and I can see how someone might infer I was talking about how pretty that particular screen shot is.

Once we get closer to finalizing it, I will post again and let you rip. You have done great work in the area of graphics and I will definitely respect your opinion.

Birch
Reply 9. At 9:29 AM on Oct 30, 2006, Steve Northover wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Well, the guy posted exactly one jpg. I'm amazed at your ability to extrapolate!

Steve
Reply 10. At 7:16 PM on Oct 30, 2006, Romain Guy wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Steve, please read all the words that people write down. Let me quote the first message:

>It is still *very* early for this work, but the attached screenshot is pretty compelling (IMHO)

It seems pretty clear to me that we are talking about this particular screenshot (should I emphasize "the attached screenshot" in the quote?) Hence the reply deals with that particular screenshot. If I had said James cannot do anything nice, that would have been an extrapolation.

Now, if you just want to shoot me down because you didn't like my negative reply, please say so. Just don't use quotes out of their context and don't make say things I did not say.; Romain Guy
Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Reply 11. At 8:34 AM on Oct 31, 2006, Matthew Perrins wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
Birch,

Keep up the good work !! IBM is doing similar stuff with our customer's. So its good to see the direction you are going in. Composite applications that merge many UI styles, technologies is where we are all heading. Is that not the market that the Vista programming model is trying to solve. Lets just hope Java/Swing/RCP are in a position to offer some customer choice. The more demonstrations we can see the better, isnt that what Aerith was all about, showing the art of the possible.

Cheers

Matt Perrins
Client Technologies
IBM Software Lab Services
Reply 12. At 10:47 AM on Oct 31, 2006, Steve Northover wrote:: Re: Sexier SWT/RCP
I think that my problem is that I have just read too much by people that think they are God's answer to UI design. Your post seemed to be leaning that way, you know "not pretty and not compelling" and all that.

Since nobody else thought this (including the original poster), then I am totally wrong. Back to work!!

Steve