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NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

At 3:03 PM on Mar 5, 2007, Daniel Spiewak Javalobby Junkies wrote:

I watched two very interesting screencasts today made by Rouman Strobl, a NetBeans evangelist and the creator of the famous Matisse screencast. Honestly, I was completely blown away by the completeness and care with which Ruby editing support has been implemented in NetBeans. I was less impressed with its Rails tooling, but that's primarily because most of the illustrated functionality has been available on RadRails for over a year now.

The killer issue for me is the Ruby editor Rouman demoed. I have never seen a Ruby editor which is/was able to replicate the features shown in the screencast. Particularly, code completion and inline documentation were big ticket features. Another biggie is the auto-insertion of closing statements (i.e. end, } and closing string markers). It's surprising how much of a difference this makes in one's editing of source code. (I've never used NetBeans Ruby, but I remember how impressed I was when JDT achieved similar functionality back in 3.0) I guess my question would be: is Eclipse getting left behind?

NetBeans isn't the only IDE being pimped out with first-class Ruby editing support. JetBrains recently announced a Ruby development plugin for IntelliJ, and even VisualStudio.NET now supports Ruby (through Ruby in Steel ). All of these editors offer advanced functionality, specifically code completion of varying degrees and auto-insertion of block keywords. RDT maybe have been the only game in town a year ago, but it's now starting to look pretty dated and "less flashy" than some of these more recent upstarts.

I've been using RDT since version 0.6, and believe me I'm very impressed with all the progress they've made, but (being the greedy user that I am) I really want more. Honestly, I use RDT for Ruby development for only two reasons. First, it's integrated into Eclipse. Second, it's a mouse-responsive editor. If it weren't for these two factors, I'd actually use VIM for all of my Ruby development. And when an editor which only supports syntax highlighting out of the box can beat out a full IDE solution, it's a bad sign.

There are two significant things to consider though, before completely disregarding Eclipse RDT as a Ruby development environment. Number one, all of the examples of Ruby support I listed above are backed by major corporations and developed full-time. NetBeans has Sun and Tor Norbye at the helm. JetBrains poured money into the IntelliJ Ruby support, and Ruby on Steel is backed by Microsoft. RDT is an open source project with only one or two developers, working on it in their spare time. You can't really fault them for making slower progress than their corporate competitors.

The second important consideration is that RDT is about to make a major release, it's first in a little over a year. According to rumor (substantiated with RDT Trac roadmaps), RDT 0.9 will have most of these major features. In fact, RDT 0.9 will actually include a set of features not included in any of these competitors (that I am aware of). This magic feature: refactoring support.

So RDT isn't entirely languishing, but it is in danger of being eclipsed (if you pardon the pun. Personally, I'm willing to wait for RDT 0.9 (due out within a month or so) to really pass judgment on "the best RDT IDE" - so to speak. However, I'm sure a lot of you are in a situation where you can't wait for RDT support to be improved. You may be developing a Rails app or even an extensive Ruby application which requires better tooling than what is available currently in Eclipse. In your situation then, I would in fact recommend jumping to Ruby in Steel or IntelliJ Ruby for your tool chain (actually, I'd probably recommend either a nightly of RDT 0.9 or a NetBeans nightly build, just considering cost).

Hopefully, RDT 0.9 will be worth the wait and once again establish itself as the leader in Ruby development tools. I certainly hope so, because otherwise I'll be jumping to NetBeans for my Ruby development, and we all know how much I like that platform! :-)
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1. At 4:14 PM on Mar 5, 2007, Roman Strobl Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

Hi Daniel, I am glad you liked my demos. As I mentioned during the demo, many other editing features are available, I couldn't demo everything in 5 minutes. We chose with Tor only the top features from a long list. So I recommend to check out Ruby support in NetBeans and remember, it's work-in-progress. In fact Tor created two more features since last week, so if you want to stay up to date, watch his blog .
Roman Strobl (roman dot strobl at sun dot com), NetBeans evangelist
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2. At 4:57 PM on Mar 5, 2007, Daniel Spiewak Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

> Hi Daniel, I am glad you liked my demos. As I
> mentioned during the demo, many other editing
> features are available, I couldn't demo everything in
> 5 minutes. We chose with Tor only the top features
> from a long list. So I recommend to check out Ruby
> support in NetBeans and remember, it's
> work-in-progress. In fact Tor created two more
> features since last week, so if you want to stay up
> to date, watch
> his blog
.

They were impressive demos. I'm just waiting for RDT to completely blow NetBeans out of the water with refactoring support as well as better content assist (I mean, you can only get so far with contextual analysis). :-)

Along those lines (sort of) anyone know the revised release date for RDT? (I'll shoot Chris an email if no one does, but sometimes it's easier to ask here)
Daniel Spiewak
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java
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3. At 10:10 PM on Mar 5, 2007, Scott Bronson Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

RadRails has pretty much stalled because both of its developers are now working at a startup. http://radrails.org/blog/2007/3/5/radrails-future_1173078407

RDT and RadRails are very popular, fairly mature Eclipse projects. It would be a shame to see them stumble because they couldn't afford to keep one or two full time programmers employed.

Does anyone know if funding could be secured? I would think that IBM at the very least would be interested in keeping these projects moving. It wouldn't take much money to put RDT/RadRails right back on top.
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4. At 7:53 AM on Mar 6, 2007, Mirko Stocker Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

I really hope our refactorings (I'm one of the three creators) can bring some new energy into the project. And if someone wants to fund us for even better refactoring support (or anything else RDT related), just contact me :-)
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5. At 1:46 PM on Mar 6, 2007, Andrey Platov Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

I hope Eclipse will strike back again in very near future. Just look at http://us.xored.com/~andrey/eclipse-dltk-ruby-eclipsecon2007.mov or visit "Dynamic Languages Toolkit" long talk at EclipseCon on Tuesday 16:30

Kind Regards,
Andrey
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6. At 7:35 AM on Mar 7, 2007, Fred Grott DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

Two minor points of contention:

1. Could link to information detailing the 0.9 feature set? There is a mention of a 0.9 RC in nightly builds on the sf.net forums.

2. Eclipse has a Trac plugin provided by Trac, does Netbeans? It would seem that ruby support might indirectly mean having a trac plugin at some point.
Fred Grott, ShareMe jabber:fg82183@conference.javalobby.org(shareme) Official contributor to EclipseZone.com and supporter of JavaLobby.org.
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7. At 10:59 AM on Mar 7, 2007, Chris Williams Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

I agree that it would be a shame for our project (RDT) and RadRails to stumble - but the fact of the matter is that we're open source, each of use does it part-time and we have absolutely no commercial backing by any organization. We just don't have the ammunition to keep up (if we continue along this path), now that all these companies are puring dveelopment time and resources into competitors.

It seems that the Eclipse foundation/organization is backing a different horse in the race anyhow - check out the DLTK (and Andrey below).
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8. At 11:54 AM on Mar 7, 2007, Daniel Spiewak Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

> Two minor points of contention:
>
> 1. Could link to information detailing the 0.9
> feature set? There is a mention of a 0.9 RC in
> nightly builds on the sf.net forums.
>
> 2. Eclipse has a Trac plugin provided by Trac, does
> Netbeans? It would seem that ruby support might
> indirectly mean having a trac plugin at some point.

The closest thing to a feature list I could find is here: http://rubyeclipse.gr-ruby.org/milestone/0.9.0 However, this is pretty outdated and incomplete. The "feature list" is pretty much scattered around in various places. You pretty much have to read through the tickets to find all of the information.

Along that line, how would Ruby support necessitate a trac plugin? I don't see any connection. Trac is an SCM, while Ruby is a programming language.
Daniel Spiewak
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java
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9. At 2:59 PM on Mar 7, 2007, Scott Bronson Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

Chris, I used the wrong word: RDT isn't stumbling at all. With 0.9 near, it appears to be progressing as fast as it always has. But it appears that other projects are rapidly catching up, mostly by throwing significant funding at Ruby development features.

This is the first I've heard of the DLTK. That screencast looks pretty impressive (of course, it's easy to make amazing screencasts... for instance, I notice he doesn't show a debugger). Is it DLTK any good? Have the RDT and DLTK projects talked about any possibility of combining efforts?
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10. At 3:16 PM on Mar 7, 2007, Chris Williams Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

DLTK is an unknown. The demo looks great, but the ruby related code isn't publically available. They look to be bundled in Europa, so they're aiming for a July release for 1.0. So I suppose we shall see how nice it is at that time.

IBM, Eclipse and DLTK haven't approached us to collaborate (nor has any company, really). Going forward:
1. I'm a bit worried that they will suck off what little community contributors we have from our project
2. I can forsee RDT taking advantage of some of the basic plumbing that DLTK got right that we never got around to.
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11. At 4:06 PM on Mar 7, 2007, Daniel Spiewak Javalobby Junkies wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

> DLTK is an unknown. The demo looks great, but the
> ruby related code isn't publically available. They
> look to be bundled in Europa, so they're aiming for a
> July release for 1.0. So I suppose we shall see how
> nice it is at that time.
>
> IBM, Eclipse and DLTK haven't approached us to
> collaborate (nor has any company, really). Going
> forward:
> 1. I'm a bit worried that they will suck off what
> little community contributors we have from our
> project
> 2. I can forsee RDT taking advantage of some of the
> basic plumbing that DLTK got right that we never got
> around to.

Well, just to be clear Chris, *I'm* not planning on abandoning RDT just yet. :-) DLTK looks pretty cool, but it looks like it lacks some stuff I'm expectant of in RDT 0.9 (auto fill and more importantly, refactoring). Besides, as you said RDT is publicly available and DLTK isn't yet.
Daniel Spiewak
ActiveObjects: an Easier Java ORM; Fuse: Resource Injection for Java
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12. At 5:06 PM on Mar 14, 2007, rhubarb Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

Doh. I finally took the plunge this week and checked out the source for RDT.

I was doing something in Ruby and decided I'm not going to continue until the matching bracket highlight would work for begin-end etc, so I decided to try my hand at some RDT coding (my day job is java dev using eclipse so it wasnt too much of a leap)

I've just spent a day on it, and now reading the mailing list I see this from Chris:

> All,
> So I should probably let the cat out of the bag here before I get too far along...

> Given the recent influx of new competitors (Netbeans, DLTK, > IntelliJ) and our relatively slow progress on some fronts > RDT has reached a bit of a crossroads.
> We are clearly getting some strong new competition that is > backed by commercial organizations with full-time
> developers. There are also companies making a stir that
> are likely to release commercial Ruby IDEs in the near
> future. With all of this happening, I'm afraid if nothing
> changes with our project then we will get left behind by the
> others who have stronger backing. We have no ability to
> employ full-time developers, nor do we really have any
> donations coming in to support augmentation of our work.

> So, I've decided to pursue a commercial fork of RDT and
> RadRails. Certianly the aim of the project will be to make a
> profit, but also to help drive RDT forward so that we are
> not left behind.

> I've yet to work out where the line is drawn between
> development on the commercial fork (Ruby Red) and
> contributing to RDT. It's my belief that if all features and
> functionality are in full open-source then the commercial
> product will have no differentation and no one will buy it
> (we're not aimed at businesses, we're aimed at developers -
> I don't see a support model as possible). So I'm striving to
> stroke a good balance between the two. Clearly, bug fixes
> would be contributed to RDT. Major new code infrastructure
> would as well. And if the project takes off, I'd like to
> support a more cohesive set of websites/trac/etc for the
> project.
> I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
> Thanks,
> Chris

So I guess that about wraps it up for RDT!

I mean, with all those other IDEs out there, I thought RDT, if it could attract more developers, or big company support, had a real chance. Most of the others are payware, and NetBeans is never going to gain the popularity Eclipse has on other platforms (it says something that even IntelliJ which costs, is way more popular than the free NetBeans)

So I'd have thought RDT was still a goer.
But then comes this mystery IDE: DLTK. This is the true death knell for RDT. It's eclipse based and supported by IBM. Even if it is vaporware its going eat RDT's lunch.

And RDT as payware, with one or two developers? IntelliJ's going take the payware market completely.

I just wonder what Aptana's going to do about the end of RDT?

I would ask this Chris: keep it open and free until IBM does kill it with DLTK, so there's something for the rest of us to work with.

Also, did anyone notice that the ruby perspecitve icon in the DLTK presentation is a total ripoff of RDT?
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13. At 7:00 PM on Mar 14, 2007, Mirko Stocker Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

> It's eclipse based and supported by IBM.

Are you sure about that? Just because it's an Eclipse technology project doesn't mean it's (financially) supported by IBM. I thought I read something about Cisco being a sponsor for the Tcl IDE?

> Also, did anyone notice that the ruby perspecitve
> icon in the DLTK presentation is a total ripoff of
> RDT?

Yeah, that's quite annoying if you have RDT and DLTK installed and they both have a Ruby perspective with the same icon :-)
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14. At 9:01 AM on Mar 15, 2007, Chris Williams Javalobby Newcomers wrote:

Re: NetBeans gets Ruby. Does Eclipse?

> Doh. I finally took the plunge this week and checked
> out the source for RDT.
>
> I was doing something in Ruby and decided I'm not
> going to continue until the matching bracket
> highlight would work for begin-end etc, so I decided
> to try my hand at some RDT coding (my day job is java
> dev using eclipse so it wasnt too much of a leap)

Well, you're in luck because we just implemented this very feature.

...snip...

> So I guess that about wraps it up for RDT!
>
> I mean, with all those other IDEs out there, I
> thought RDT, if it could attract more developers, or
> big company support, had a real chance. Most of the
> others are payware, and NetBeans is never going to
> gain the popularity Eclipse has on other platforms
> (it says something that even IntelliJ which costs, is
> way more popular than the free NetBeans)
>
> So I'd have thought RDT was still a goer.
> But then comes this mystery IDE: DLTK. This is the
> true death knell for RDT. It's eclipse based and
> supported by IBM. Even if it is vaporware its going
> eat RDT's lunch.
>
> And RDT as payware, with one or two developers?
> IntelliJ's going take the payware market completely.
>

RDT is not becoming "payware". It has and will remain to be open-source. If you read the note a little more carefully you'll see I am pursuing a commercial fork on top of RDT and RadRails, and will continue to contribute to RDT. Use PyDev and PyDev Extensions as an example, I suppose.

> I just wonder what Aptana's going to do about the end
> of RDT?
>
> I would ask this Chris: keep it open and free until
> IBM does kill it with DLTK, so there's something for
> the rest of us to work with.

RDT is still free. Use it as you wish. If you'd like a standalone with Rails support and some additional features, then consider using Ruby Red.

> Also, did anyone notice that the ruby perspecitve
> icon in the DLTK presentation is a total ripoff of
> RDT?

Yes, it would have been nice to have heard from them about using it.

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